Fòram na Gàidhlig

I was looking up some things today for a project of mine and got a bit carried away reading cross-references. I ended up coming across two phrases in Am Faclair Beag:

faodaidh cat sealltainn air an rìgh

agus

faodaidh an rìgh na sùilean a chur ás a' chat

Literal meanings are provided for both, so I kind of get the idea, but it feels to me like these are fixed expressions, almost proverbial, and have another meaning that is not at all obvious to me as a non-native speaker.

Could anyone provide insight into the meanings of these expressions?

(sorry if I'm in the wrong forum. I'm terrible at these things.)

Chan eil fhios a'm - I don't know.

You are in the correct section

The first one is a proverb that also occurs in English - a cat may look at a king.

In other words, there is no law or no barrier to a lowly person looking at a high-up person (in class / hierarchy terms), also extended to mean 'I'm as good as you' or 'You're not as superior as you think you are'.

The second one seems to me to be a rather black-humour repartee to the first: yes, but a king can have the cat's eyes put out for looking! i.e. a sort of warning not to push your luck with those in power.

Beachd sam bith eile?

Thank you faoileag; that makes sense. I'd actually wondered if they were supposed to be paired, but it didn't occur to me that one could be a riposte to the other.

Tha mi ag aontachadh le faoileag! They are a pair indeed but that sort of thing is hard to to in the Faclair Beag without having huge entries. Maybe I should put those two together again.

akerbeltz: Is it your dictionary? If so, I love finding these random things in it. (I'm a tr*nsl*t*r and total language nerd, so dictionaries are exciting.)

Another pairing is more a tr*nsl*tion question. Cho breugach ri ceàrd is given as "As mendacious as the Devil" when that's clearly not what it says. This last phrase doesn't seem to be idiomatic in English (or at least I've never heard it and Google only lists your site), so I wonder at the ceàrd/Devil pairing. It seems euphemistic.

Cho breugach ri ceàrd - As deceitful as a tinker.
breug - a lie
ceàrd - a craftsman (often used disparagingly, as in tinker)

Yes it is Glad you're finding it exciting!

Cho breugach ri ceàrd is given as "As mendacious as the Devil" when that's clearly not what it says.

Well, yes and no. It's not a literal tr*nsl*t**n for sure but then why should it be? Dictionaries don't often give literal translations for idiomatic phrases, that would be both pointless and misleading. I know traditionally that tends to happen in minority languages but it's really bad practice. For example, half of what Nicolson collected is totally meaningless because he just gives, on the whole, literal translations of this proverbs. Well duh, I can figure the literal myself, what I can't figure is the extended/intended meaning

For example, if you look up "One swallows doesn't make a summer" in an English > French dictionary, you'll find that without much in the way of explanation, it will tell you that "une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps" i.e doesn't make a spring. A good dictionary is not concerned with the literal meaning so much but ... things that carry the same message. So in spite of the summer/spring issue, a Frenchman and an Englishman will understand the same message.

Which is why the Faclair Beag is just following best practice and where there are strongly idiomatic phrases, we give an appropriate equivalent, not a tr*nsl*t**n.

There's a practical reason. Say you were looking for the Gaelic for "daft as a brush" - if we gave "cho craicte ris na h-uiseagan" as "as crazy as the skylarks", you'd be pretty stuck because no English speaker would ever dream of looking for "skylark" when they want "brush".

We did think this one through

akerbeltz,

I totally understand what you're saying--I've taken whole courses on terminology and dictionary building. What I find interesting about the tinker example is that the tr*nsl*tion doesn't actually give an idiomatic English equivalent. Generally and with the examples you gave above, an equivalent expression would be listed, one with the same meaning in the target language. I understand "as mendacious as the Devil," though "mendacious" to me is a bit high-brow, but it's not idiomatic. Since it's not an idiom, why use "Devil" for what's clearly "tinker?" Is there some kind of common folk linkage of the two, slang use or something? This, really, is the basis of my question, since it's so rare I get to discuss tr*nsl*tion theory or query why one decision was made instead of another.

(BTW, we have these oddities in Canada, too, with French-English correspondences. My favourite has got to be "To take French leave" = "Filer à l'Anglais." Both mean "to leave rudely without saying goodbye," but the history and politics of who habitual rude behaviour is assigned to is fantastic. I wonder if there's a similar history to the tinker phrase is all.)

Anyway, thank you for indulging me in this interesting line of enquiry. It's probably a bit odd for me to admit I read your dictionary at work, but yeah. I read your dictionary at work.

So do I (well, sometimes ), a Chairistìona!

A propos: We say in Russian "уходить по-английски" ("Filer à l'Anglais") meaning "softly-softly / without any notice", but not necessary "rudely" (maybe you simply do not want to bother other people). In some situations it would be rudely and in others not.
Does it mean the same thing in French?

LOL it's ok, you may read the dictionary at work.

Dunno though, in my mind all these "as something as" broadly fall into the category of idioms/sayings/similes etc which can't be translated literally. Sometimes it's not easy finding one which fits in English but we usually make sure, via the Poor Man's Corpus (aka Google), that a phrase like that is reasonably well known but I'm actually not finding "as the devil" ... odd, I must have gotten this from a different source, quite likely I asked a native English speaker.

I WAS tempted by "as mendacious as Bush Jr" ... There's a few "as false as" but I'm not sure they're right, e.g. as false as a Scot (yikes!)

But by all means if you have a better suggestion for the English do share, I'm always willing to consider that things can be improved!

CairistionaNicD wrote:BTW, we have these oddities in Canada, too, with French-English correspondences. My favourite has got to be "To take French leave" = "Filer à l'Anglais." Both mean "to leave rudely without saying goodbye," but the history and politics of who habitual rude behaviour is assigned to is fantastic.

Gu h-inntineach, 's e fàgail "Fhrangach" san Spàinis cuideachd (despedida a la francesa), agus tha Wikipedia Ghearmailteach ag ràgh gur ann "Pòlach" a tha i am measg Ghearmailtich òga. (ceangal) Tha i Sasannach sa Sheacais (zmizet po anglicku = "rach à sealladh ann an dòigh Shasannach") ach chan ann "rude" - 's e an implication gur e sin an aon dòigh airson fhàgail (no fhàgail gu cofhurtail) a tha ann. Mar eisimpleir a' dol AWOL, no fàgail pàrtaidh air choireigin glè thràth (tha fhios agaibh air an t-suidheachadh: "O, na falbh fhathast, tha an oidhche òg, gabh gloinne eile, nach eil sinn a' còrdadh riut?") amsaa... Co-dhiù, 's toil leam a' chiad às-aithris a lorg mi san OED (1751): "French Leave is a phrase we had often in use, When one slily elop'd; nor left coin or excuse."

There's quite a few of these charming idioms. In German we have "etwas türken" (to Turk something) meaning to fake something, for example a fake coin or something.

Bràthair Duitseach mo mhàthair...
Uinneagan Frangach...
A' ghriùthrach Ghearmailteach...
Duitsis dhùbailte...
Dòigh-beatha Tseacach...
Losgadh Sìonach...
Samhradh Innseanach...
Màthair Èiphiteach...
Tlachd Thurcach...
Roile Eilbheiseach...
Rabaid Chuimreach...
Co-ogha Gearmailteach...
Dhomhsa is Greugais a h-uile nì...
Misneachd Dhuitseach...
Tigear pàipeir...
Cuin nach eil doras na dhoras? Nuair a tha e leth-fhosgailte...
She worked on her own head for five years...
Won't you take a door drink before you go?..
And she stood there on the side of my mouth...
Gheibh e nas fheàrr...

(na feuchaibh ri gin dhiubh a chleachdadh san dà-rìribh)(don't try this at home)

Seonaidh wrote:Duitsis dhùbailte... Suaithilis
Samhradh Innseanach... - samhradh seanmhaireach
Dhomhsa is Greugais a h-uile nì... - 's e clachan Spàinteach dhomsa
Misneachd Dhuitseach... - moit a' mhisgeir
Tigear pàipeir... cù a chomhartaicheas ach nach teumas
She worked on her own head for five years... - on a free leg

Dè a th' ann dòigh-beatha Tseacach, màthair Èiphiteach agus co-ogha Gearmailteach ge-tà?

ag obair cho cruaidh ri Bulgarach
teaghlach Eadailteach
geamhradh Ruiseanach
muicfheòil Shasannach
bòrd Suaineach
tuathanas Turcach
cho spìocach ri Albannach