Strì Chultarach?

Na tha a' tachairt ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig agus na pàipearan-naidheachd / What's happening in the Gaelic world and the newspapers
akerbeltz
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by akerbeltz »

Cha cuir iongnadh orm idir gu bheil an luchd-eolas canan a farachdainn comhfhortail a cleachdadh Beurla a cuir air adhart argamaid gun e iadsan a tha comasach Gaidhlig a sabhailadh.
You know, that's exactly the kind of approach that gifted us mygaelic.com. The amount of money, effort and time that has been wasted in minority languages because they took the approach of "who is a member of our group whom we can give this job to" rather than "out of all the people, who has the best skills to benefit our language overall".

Yes OF COURSE in the long run the aim should be to foster native talent but look around you and smell the coffee. You can't grow your own linguist/dentist/whatever overnight, that takes time and in the meantime knowledge transfer models are the best we can do in a hurry. At a high estimate, maybe 1-2 linguists graduate each year that are Gaelic speakers. And as with any such subject, not all do the same thing so the pool of sociolinguistis who are also Gaelic speakers is tiny beyond belief. You could advertise until you're blue in the face and get no suitable applicants. Then what, hire the cleaner because he's a native speaker from Uist?

And like it or not, English is the language of international research, that hardly means that the message is meaningless. The people who invented the language nest spread the message - surprise surprise - in English. Does that mean language nests are shit?
conmaol

Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by conmaol »

Gràisg - My background is in computational linguistics rather than Celtic studies. My Gaelic is currently poor but I am learning quickly! Most of the other members of the Soillse team are Gaelic-speakers.

Maybe we should start by crowdsourcing a Gaelic word for "crowdsourcing"!
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Níall Beag »

Heh. I've just remembered the minor stoushie over the University of Arizona research announcement. Remember that? Mocking tones about the amount of Gaelic in Arizona, rather than accepting the usefulness of having a dispassionate observer making useful measurements.

Anyway, I for one am happy to see money going to genuinely informed people rather than highly opinionated people.

Sometimes I think the best thing for Gaelic would be to see an end to Celtic Studies degrees so that the people who are genuinely interested in developing Gaelic would have to go out and pick an actual skill. As it is, too many people who are keen to be part of the Gaelic revival get an education that doesn't actually prepare them to play any useful part in that revival.

Hopefully Rob's lecture will push the idea that you're of more use to Gaelic as a specialist than as a Celticist and will get people to think more before picking their degrees....
Each
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Each »

Sann airson canan beothail a tha mi a mach.

B'fhearr leinn a lorg fuasglan ri duilgheadasan gniomchas agus choimhearsnachd a tha ag iarradh a toirt cothrom do dhaoine Gaidhlig a cleachdadh gu nadarrach ach tha h-uile cnap starra gam bacadh. Cuisean deantach. Ach chan eil oifigear leasachaidh ri fhaotainn...

Tha airgead gann mar sinn 's e tomhais dhen amasan a th'ann....

Ma tha sibh ag innse dhomh gu bheil e nas fhearr a bith rannasachadh Gaidhlig tro meadhan Beurla anns an oifis an ard-ollamh na bhith a muigh anns a choimhearsneachd, cleachdadh a canan, bhruidhinn ri chlann, luchd-gniomhachas 's eile, de chanas mi ?

Nuair a tha an choimhearsnachd air a laimhseachadh mar buill-sampaill agus faic iad a palltas dhen airgead a dol air rannsachadh ann an aite na brosnachadh leasachaidh choimhearnseachd, tha e furasda tuigsinn carson a tha foigheann a radh "na innse dhomh mu Gaidhlig, tha mi sgith dheth, tha gaidhlig gu fheum - tha h-uile a cail a dol tron Beurla. ! "

'S s sinne a tha an cisean a paigh, agus 's e sinne a togail an ath ginnealach -

mar sin tha bheachdan againn, agus tha coir againn airson bruidhinn a-mach.
akerbeltz
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by akerbeltz »

If I hear the word "nàdarra" these days, it makes my stomach churn. I know what you mean Each but the word gets misused a lot. I will give you one more example and then call it a day because I have a feeling I'm not getting through.

So, we want more language X on the street? The headlong approach is to go with anywhich scheme anywhere that seems to aim for that goal. The research based approach, which they took in the Basque Country when the headlong approach wasn't giving them the results they had hoped for reveled why. Apparently there is an unconscious filter in the human mind that checks the prevalance of the surrounding language. Irrespective of the individual abilities or indeed the abilities of an individual's social network (i.e. friends and family), overall it turns out that if in our neighbourhood language X is spoken roughly by 60% or more of the residents, we default to speaking language X. Otherwise we default to language Y even if your friendly neighbourhood action groups is trying to encourage you to use the language till their blue in the face. So the Basques shifted their focus to more specific targeted action plans that in areas that were close to this threshhold to increase use above it and in areas that were way out, measures that would ensure that the people coming out of education got enough chances to maintain the language in expectation of the day when it would get close to 60% or so. Now you tell me that that's a waste of time and money and that the researchers who discovered this are hellspawn...

Regarding the Celtic Studies, I don't think abolishing them is necessary but we need a new kid on the block. Historically linguistics and modern languages grew out of philologies, i.e. language specific university subjects that focussed a lot on history and literature. Most countries have by now made a distinction between the modern language and the philology, which would make sense in Scotland too. We could have Celtic Philology (with all the Old Irish and bardic poetry stuff in it) and Modern Scottish Gaelic (focussing on current aspects of the language). The exisisting cross is not a happy solution and I've said so for a long time.
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Seonaidh »

Inntinneach. Nuair a bha mi airson a dhol don oilthigh - agus roimhe a' dèanamh Àrd Ìre amsaa - bha mi a' smaoineachadh mu chànan, cànanan amsaa. Ach, aig an àm ud, cha bu toigh leamsa litreachas agus sguir mi cànanan air sàillibh 's gun do chum iad "litreachas".

Nise, dè "Celtic Studies"? Nam bithinnsa a' dèanamh "Celtic Studies", bhithinn an dùil gun cumadh e cànanan Ceilteach, beagan ethnology 's dòcha, eachdraidh Cheilteach agus litreachas Ceilteach. Chan ann an seo a gheibhear na sgilean feumail airson Gàidhlig a shìneadh. Bidh ceumnaichean "Celtic Studies" math air, m.e., ainmean àite a thuigsinn, bàrdachd a sgrìobhadh, leabhraichean no aithisgean fhoillseachadh amsaa - ach cha bhi iad nas fheàrr na cruinn-eòlaiche, matamataigiche no eaconamair air taic a chur do chànan. No fiù ceumnaiche "Rangers Studies"...

Mar a chanar, "Don't put all your Basques in one exit"...
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Gràisg »

@ Mark “Crowdsourcing” Chuir mi deasbad air dòigh san roinn ghràmar
http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/foram/vi ... =11&t=1694

San fharsaingeachd tha eagal orm gum bith cus beurla ga bruidhinn am broinn Soillse ma tha feadhainn ann gun Ghàidhlig bhon toiseach-tòiseachaidh. Chunnaic mi aig Oilthigh Obar Dheathainn ged a bha daoine ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig bha feadhainn fhathast bruidinn Beurla ri chèile agus ris na h-ollamhan aig ceann ceithir bliadhna. Ach tha feum aig na sgilean agaibhsa agus mura robh duine sam bith ri fhaighinn ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig s’ann mar sin a tha e.
S’ann le Each a tha mise (gu h-ire). Nach eil cunnart ann gu bheil pailteas rannsachaidh a tha ann mu thrath mu dheidhinn Gaidhlig? An tig peilear-airgid às aig a cheann thall no am bi anns an rannsachadh seo chan eil ann ach £5,000,000 dhan t-sitig mur a gabh coimhearsnachd ris? Cunnart eile nam bheachdsa – a bheil eòlaichean ceart a h-uile turas? Tha fios agam nach ann mar sin a tha an t-saoghal sgoilearachd a’ smaoineachadh air a’ ghnothach ge-tà.
Am bi sinn uile dìreach còig bliadhna air adhart le leabhar tomadach eile air an sgeilp agus Gaidhlig nas fhaisge air an cladh?
akerbeltz
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by akerbeltz »

Bah, a research group like Soillse is the last place where you need to start with language plans. You can't on the one side say you want to push Gaelic in the community and then focus all your attention of introducing Gaelic to the workplace in a small research body that at best will number a couple of dozen full time members. I honestly couldn't care less about the working language of Soillse as long as they have the right skillset for the job, which may or may not require Gaelic. Not all research on dental treatment requires dentists.

If you want to focus your energies on Gaelic in the workplace, then why not take the - admittedly harder - route of working on language normalisation in the workplace for people on the ground? How about we start work now on language plans for the second generation of fish farms on the west coast where they're talking of residential fish rigs. How about language plans for churches in the WI? THAT's where the battle needs to be...
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Níall Beag »

Gràisg wrote:Cunnart eile nam bheachdsa – a bheil eòlaichean ceart a h-uile turas?
That road leads to the Creationist argument -- scientists are sometimes wrong, so let's never listen to them.

Skepticism has a part to play in all scientific enquiry, but let's be skeptical of what they say, when they say it. Let's not let skepticism stop them doing anything in the first place.

I was skeptical of soillse initial because the original press releases made it sound like all sociology and pontification, excluding the known need for cold, hard linguistics. But now we've got computational linguists and the like working on it. Give them a chance...
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Gràisg »

Give them a chance...

An tig 'paradigm shift' tro Shoillse? Tha na oilthighean, Bòrd na Gàidhlig agus Iomairt na Gàidhealtachd a' cur geall air. Tha e dèanta tha fhios agam ach am bi saoghal na Gaidhlig taobh a-muigh na h-oilthighean agus na buidhnean a' dol ri sin? A bheil tuilleadh rannsachadh an rud as cudromaich dhaibh? A bheil Each na aonar no an e Legion a th'ann? Chì sinn.
Co-dhiù sin agad e bhuamsa air a' chuspair seo gus an cluinn mi an Oraid aig Rab Dimairt.
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by An Gobaire »

Then what, hire the cleaner because he's a native speaker from Uist?
Cuiridh e iongnadh ort na tha daoine comasach air, ma thogas iad fhèin ùidh ann an cuspair, agus ma gheibh iad cothrom na Fèinne air a dhèanamh.

Chan eil fhios air na tha an neach-glanaidh ris taobh a-muigh nan uairean obrach, no air na rudan do bheil e no i a' toirt suim!
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!
akerbeltz
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by akerbeltz »

Cha duirt mi idir gu bheil mi sa bheachd gu bheil cuideigin gun chiall gun sgil gun fheum air sgàth 's gu bheil iad a' glanadh an ùrlair.

A bharrachd air sin, tha mi leigeil seachd an cuspair seo. Tha follaiseach gu bheil sinn air planaidean eadar-dhealaichte ;)
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by An Gobaire »

Tha fios agam nach tuirt. 'S dòcha gu bheil thu a' smaointinn gun do leum mi air aon seantans a sgrìobh thu shuas. Ach, bha mi dìreach airson foillseachadh gu bheil mi am beachd nach e an obair an duine, agus an duine an obair...agus gu bheil mi am beachd gu bheil iomadh comas aig daoine, seach dìreach na dh'fheumas iad dèanamh airson teachd-an-tìr fhaighinn! Chan eil mi ag ràdh idir nach eil an aon bheachd agad cheudna. Shònraich mi an seantans sin mar chothrom air mo bheachd san t-seagh seo fhoillseachadh.
Dèan buil cheart de na fhuair thu!
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Níall Beag »

Gràisg wrote:A bheil tuilleadh rannsachadh an rud as cudromaich dhaibh?
You're getting dangerously close to the line of thought that leads people like Mail readers to declare that Gaelic on the Scottish Parliament website is bankrupting the NHS, causing schools to close and leading to public sector workers being thrown out in the streets.

And while lots of people are putting lots of effort in, the results are limited. So yes, we do need more research -- particularly corpus work.
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Re: Strì Chultarach?

Unread post by Gràisg »

agus gu bheil mi am beachd gu bheil iomadh comas aig daoine, seach dìreach na dh'fheumas iad dèanamh airson teachd-an-tìr fhaighinn!
'It ain't what you do it's the way that you do it'?

Nuair a thig e gu h-aon agus dha tha an neach-glanaidh gu math cudromach gu h-àraidh mur a dèan e/i a chuid obrach, gu h-àraidh san ospadal.

Faisg air an Daily Mail? Chan eil mise co cinnteach ach am bu chòir don eagal sin càisg a chur air deasbad ann an saoghal na Gàidhlig?
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