Prepositional pronouns in complex phrases...?

[Níall Beag]

Here's a tricky one.

I recently saw a phrase along the lines of "eadarrinn 's Glaschu" as "between us and Glasgow", but it was from another adult learner. Can you use prepositional pronouns when the pronoun is only part of the indirect object? I suspect not, and it's because of "eadar" -- eadar only has synthetic forms for plural persons -- so it's "eadar ise 's esan", where there so easily have been prepositional pronoun forms such as "*eadairre 's esan" or "*eadar 's ise".

So can you "Tha paiste agam 's mo bhean", or would it have to be "Tha paiste aig mise 's mo bhean", or even "Tha paiste agam is gam bhean"?

[jjb362]

Dwelly has an example which he gives as "eadar sinne agus sibhse", "between us and you", so in speaking of "between us and Glasgow" it would probably be more correct to say "eadar sinne agus Glaschu", and there are plenty of examples of this construction in Gaelic prose, some of which are ancient and some modern.

In terms of the "aig" question, I think the thing to say here would be "tha paiste agam is aig mo bhean". Again there are examples of this construction out there

Hope this helps

[Níall Beag]

That's more or less what I expected. Thanks very much.

[akerbeltz]

eadarainn/eadaraibh/eatarra only work if both the objects aren't overtly present, i.e.

Bha deasbad ag èirigh eadarainn
but
Bha deasbad eadar mise 's mo chèile

[Seonaidh]

Inntinneach - bho shealladh cànanach. Oir seo diofar eadar Gàidhlig agus Cùimris. Bhiodh "eadar mise is tusa" sa Chuimris "rhyngof a thi" (Meadhan Chuimris "rhof a thi"). agus "eadar sinne is sibhse" => "rhyngom a chwithau". Sa chànan an-diugh, "rhyngof innau a ti", "rhyngon ninnau a chithau". Mar sin, cumaidh mi nach ceart a bhiodh "eadarainn agus sibhse" sa Ghàidhlig air "eadar sinne agus sibhse"?

[akerbeltz]

... a' chiad rud a chanas am fear leis an stais http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-oH-TELcLE

[GunChleoc]

[Níall Beag]

eadarainn/eadaraibh/eatarra only work if both the objects aren't overtly present, i.e.

Bha deasbad ag èirigh eadarainn
but
Bha deasbad eadar mise 's mo chèile

But the further question was whether this extends to all complex indirect objects (IE two or more things). jjb362 says it does -- do you agree?

I was trying to work out whether the so-called prepositional pronouns are actually self-contained adverbs (substituting for a whole prepositional phrase). (Except of course the prepositional possessives are different.)

[akerbeltz]

errr... i'm a bit lost still. give me an English example sentence?

[faoileag]

Niall, think I'm following you on that line of thought.

Càite an robh e? Bha e eadarra. (adverb of place) c.f. anns a' mheadhan.

San àm a tha romhainn. (adv. of time) c.f. San àm ri teachd;

RInn e air mo shon-sa sin. (adv. of reason) c.f. air sgàth a' ghaoil a bh' aige orm.



Don't know how elastic that is, though!

[Níall Beag]

errr... i'm a bit lost still. give me an English example sentence?

I know a guy called John. Him* and his wife have a house in Timbuktu.

What I'm trying to get at is how the "him and his wife" bit ends up with the "aig" in place.


* Sorry to all the pedants out there, but this is how I say it, and how most of the people I know say it. It seems like case doesn't penetrate noun phrases.

[akerbeltz]

Tha taigh aige 's aig a bhean ann an Timbuktu.

How else?

[Níall Beag]

Tha taigh aige 's aig a bhean ann an Timbuktu.

How else?

Cool.

Does that follow to
Tha taigh aig Seònaidh 's aig Màiri or is it Tha taigh aig Seònaidh 's Màiri if they share a house?

[Seonaidh]

Seo deviation - gràmar na Beurla. Thuirt Niall "Him and his wife" - agus bidh daoine ag ràdh rudan coltach sa Bheurla, m.e. "me and him had a game of marbles". A rèir nan seann ghràmairean (? grammaticists), bhiodh seo ceàrr, air sgàth 's fum feumar an tuiseal "nominative" (I, he) an seo. Chan eil diofar sa Ghàidhlig eadar "nominative" agus "accusative". Co-dhiù, is na tha iad air diochuimhneachadh gu bheil cruth eile air an "nominative" nuair a bhios beagan cuidim air. Sa Ghàidhlig, 's dòcha gun teireamaid "'S mise" amsaa - sa Bheurla, "Me". San dòigh làn "It's me". Agus seo mar a bhruidhneas daoine sa Bheurla. Mar a thuirt Niall, "Him and his wife", chan e "He and his wife" no fiù 's "His wife and he".

[akerbeltz]

Tha taigh aig Seònaidh 's aig Màiri or is it Tha taigh aig Seònaidh 's Màiri if they share a house?

An dà chuid