Advice on Dative (fem) noun forms

[jasonleitch]

Hiya all

This business about the feminine Dative case, some of these words are irregular and don't change when used. Loads however do, and from what I gather there is no set rule as to what words are irregular, my question is; is there a dictionary key of some sorts to distinguish the irregular from the regular? Say learn a f noun, I want to use it with preposition, being a beginner my brain is running through a script tying to determine whether to conjugate and what that should be, rather than just using it. Obviously I want to know how to manipulate that word into any situation. Is this just experience/ trial and error

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand it right now ... Male Dative, shows up in speech and in written speech so not only would I write:

leis an t-sneachd

I'd say it as well?

However for Feminine Nouns I would only say:

air a' chois

if in a formal situation, and say:

air a' chas

in any other? But always write:

air a' chois

Basically, when will I see what, and which should I use and when, so I'm not practicing the wrong thing.


abhainn (f) - river ai not sure
caileig (f) - girl
eaglais (f)- church ai not sure
feirg (f) - anger
làimh (f) - hand
leabaidh (f) - bed ai not sure
litir (f) - letter i not sure
nighein (f) - girl, daughter or nighin not sure of this one in particular

as:
a' chaileag > aig a' chaileig
a' chailleach > aig a' chaillich

so ea could be i or ei regardless of the poly/monosyllabic guide.

oidhche (f) - night no change
sgèin (f) - knife
sgoil (f) - school oi not sure
sìth (f) - peace i not sure
snàthaid (f) - needle

now if this looks like a hack job mess, it's because it is lol. I have literally dumped the rules I have just learned onto the page to see how they're corrected with no technical finesse what so ever.

[akerbeltz]

Regarding the snow, you're in luck, san t-sneachd is in the Faclair Beag.

Ok, let's separate the dative stuff into two categories, what the article does and what the noun does. What the article does is obligatory:
air a' ch/bh/gh/mh/ph
air an d/fh/l/n/r/t
air an t-s

The slenderisation stuff works like this: in colloquial settings, both in writing and speaking, forget it. 95 out of 100 native speakers don't and there's no reason why you should. So air a' chas, air a' chaileag, air a' bhean are ok in writing and speaking unless you're dealing with someone high on grammar or someone with a really conservative language pattern.

There are, however, some words which are almost "fixed" as in, people are so used to those that irrespective of what they do to "normal nouns", they retain the fancy stuff. Top example is (ann) am broinn (which is the dative form of brù). The other one, air a' chois, is half and half, in a normal sentence air a' chas is totally ok but there are some phrases which invoke the dative, e.g. tha e air a leth-chois (he is one-legged). There's no hard and fast rule, you need to learn which ones (still) require the slenderisation stuff but for the most part, you only need to pay close attention to what the preposition/article does in terms of lenition etc.

If you're doing the dative, then bear in mind that a word which already ends in a slender consonant or vowel can't change any further, so eaglais/oidhche/abhainn/leabaidh/sgoil etc won't change anyway.

[jasonleitch]

Regarding the snow, you're in luck, san t-sneachd is in the Faclair Beag.

Ok, let's separate the dative stuff into two categories, what the article does and what the noun does. What the article does is obligatory:
air a' ch/bh/gh/mh/ph
air an d/fh/l/n/r/t
air an t-s

The slenderisation stuff works like this: in colloquial settings, both in writing and speaking, forget it. 95 out of 100 native speakers don't and there's no reason why you should. So air a' chas, air a' chaileag, air a' bhean are ok in writing and speaking unless you're dealing with people high on grammar or someone with a really conservative language pattern.

There are, however, some words which are almost "fixed" as in, people are so used to those that irrespective of what they do to "normal nouns", they retain the fancy stuff. Top example is (ann) am broinn (which is the dative form of brù). The other one, air a' chois, is half and half, in a normal sentence air a' chas is totally ok but there are some phrases which invoke the dative, e.g. tha e air a leth-chois (he is one-legged). There's no hard and fast rule, you need to learn which ones (still) require the slenderisation stuff but for the most part, you only need to pay close attention to what the preposition/article does in terms of lenition etc.

If you're doing the dative, then bear in mind that a word which already ends in a slender consonant or vowel can't change any further, so eaglais/oidhche/abhainn/leabaidh/sgoil etc won't change anyway.

Can I just say I love this forum. Many thanks Akerb. I think i'm going to spend a wee bit more time than is probably necessary on this. It might be that I can get away with just sticking to nominative patterns for preposition and only need to be aware of the fact that there is a dative there and I will encounter it on occasion.

Does this apply to the Male Dative as well or is that more set in the stone so to speak of how people speak. i.e.

leis an òran instead of leis an t-òran for example.

and just to clarify your points:

for grian > a' ghrian > fon ghrèin. This: fon ghrian is acceptable in spoken and written speech?

cailleach > a' chailleach > dhan chaillich. This: dhan chailleach is acceptable in spoken and written speech?

[akerbeltz]

Can I just say I love this forum. Many thanks Akerb.

Haha 's e do bheatha.

The lenition patterns are totally independent of gender in the dative. Either you have a preposition on its own which may or may not lenite:
le cas
fo chas
or, if it involves the definite article, you get what the leniting article does anyway:
leis a' chas
fon chas
leis a' bhalach
fon bhalach

So in your example, leis an òran is obligatory. The only thing you can generally discard is the slenderisation bit.

Fon ghrian and dhan chailleach are not only acceptable, they're the norm in spoken speech. Most native speakers will think you're being a smartarse if you say fon ghrèin, except perhaps in the set phrase dè fon ghrèin a tha seo? In writing, it depends on the writer and the style. If you're writing a speech at a conference, using the dative is not weird. In a cartoon, it is. It's hard to give rules for this sort of thing but I'd say that in your situation, you're unlikely (excluding people high on grammar) to run into any situation soon where you sound odd for not slenderising in the dative. Make sense?

[jasonleitch]

Fon ghrian and dhan chailleach are not only acceptable, they're the norm in spoken speech. Most native speakers will think you're being a smartarse if you say fon ghrèin, except perhaps in the set phrase dè fon ghrèin a tha seo? In writing, it depends on the writer and the style. If you're writing a speech at a conference, using the dative is not weird. In a cartoon, it is. It's hard to give rules for this sort of thing but I'd say that in your situation, you're unlikely (excluding people high on grammar) to run into any situation soon where you sound odd for not slenderising in the dative. Make sense?

Perfect sense!

So in your example, leis an òran is obligatory

This however does not. I'm either getting my wires crossed or i'm absolutely correct. For male dative it's rules differ from the nominative and apply completely?

Unlike fem nouns the nominative pattern is identical to the dative: caileag > a 'chaileag > aig a 'chaileag.

However bòrd > am bòrd > fon bhòrd but not air am bòrd instead air a' bhòrd

So although the nominative in place of the slenderized (damn American keyboard) is used in normal speech for the feminine dative, the male dative form is obligatory? OR am I missing something? lol

[akerbeltz]

Yes, you got your wires crossed. Here are some examples with colour. The red is the dative case marking on the noun (optional) and the green the obligatory lenition stuff at the beginning, using two masculine (vowel and consonant initial) and two feminine nouns (vowel and consonant initial)

òran » an t-òran
coileach » an coileach
ad » an ad
caileag » a' chaileag

air òran » air an òran
air coileach » air a' choileach | fo choileach » fon choileach
air ad » air an ad
air caileag » air a' chaileag | fo chaileag » fon chaileag

The last two, in very conservative Gaelic would be
air aid » air an aid
air caileig » air a' chaileig | fo chaileig » fon chaileig

[jasonleitch]

coileach
an coileach
air coileach
air a' choileach
fo choileach
fon choileach

bòrd
am bòrd
air bòrd
air a' bhòrd
fo bhòrd
fon bhòrd

but next to your example isn't that exactly what I did...?

I think the reason I'm not getting this is because I like the male dative lol, I think it sounds nice I don't want to let it go. I get that I wouldn't use the female dative in everyday constructions. For example:

Discard fem dative:

Tha an nighean ris an uinneag oir tha a' ghrian blàth

but for male cases...

Chan eil uisge ann anns an t-sruth
Nach eil aran ùr anns a' bhogsa ann?

An robh e fliuch no tioram air a' mhonadh?

Or disgard male dative:
Chan eil uisge ann anns an sruth
Nach eil aran ùr anns am bogsa ann?

An robh e fliuch no tioram air am monadh?

if these sentences are wrong, wrong meaning to the use of preposition/dative, then what would they be corrected.

this is as far as my knowledge takes me on the subject, use male, discard feminine. Sorry if the example are clumsy. I hope the underline message isn't just as simple as "Don't use the dative Jason" lol. Especially after the time I've put into it already -__- .

[akerbeltz]

coileach
an coileach
air coileach
air a' choileach
fo choileach
fon choileach

bòrd
am bòrd
air bòrd
air a' bhòrd
fo bhòrd
fon bhòrd

Correct. But there is no such thing as the male dative. If the t-s thing is what's confusing you, they all do that, irrespective of gender. That's to do with the definite article. Can I ask you to look at a sheet I did many moons ago? It may just answer your question. Try this pdf

[jasonleitch]

coileach
an coileach
air coileach
air a' choileach
fo choileach
fon choileach

bòrd
am bòrd
air bòrd
air a' bhòrd
fo bhòrd
fon bhòrd

Correct. But there is no such thing as the male dative. If the t-s thing is what's confusing you, they all do that, irrespective of gender. That's to do with the definite article. Can I ask you to look at a sheet I did many moons ago? It may just answer your question. Try this pdf

Absolutely thanks, I think i'm referring to it as male dative in my own way not really referring to a standardised term, I hate when noobs do that in the computer industry because it confuses the resolution of a problem that could otherwise be resolved sooner, so apologies, but when I say "male dative" I only mean dative with a male noun, not a special case.

I wish I could navigate your site better, but it's all in gaidhlig lol, which is the dream of course. I love it but it makes finding things harder for me, would never have found this sheet. Makes me wonder what else might be hidden there.

[akerbeltz]

That particular pdf is hard to get to currently because I haven't quite finished migrating my old site to the new Wiki format. It'll be clearer when I'm done.

[faoileag]

Jason, if it's any help to you, the masculine dative noun does exactly what the feminine nominative noun does (as regards article, lenition, use or not of t-).

And the feminine dative does the same, unless you additionally slenderise for more formal situations.

May I ask what book / material you are using to learn? Normally there are pretty straightforward tables with that kind of thing.

E.g. http://taic.me.uk/pdf/appen9.PDF


I can also open Ak's pdf file without any navigation by simply clicking on the large pdf symbol. The grammatical headings (Masc. fem, nom, dative etc) are all in English. He has added two adjective (mòr=big, dubh=black) to the table to show the changes that happen to those too. It prints out nicely too. (Taing do dh'Ak, mar as àbhaist! )

[jasonleitch]

That particular pdf is hard to get to currently because I haven't quite finished migrating my old site to the new Wiki format. It'll be clearer when I'm done.

awesome!

Jason, if it's any help to you, the masculine dative noun does exactly what the feminine nominative noun does (as regards article, lenition, use or not of t-).

And the feminine dative does the same, unless you additionally slenderise for more formal situations.

May I ask what book / material you are using to learn? Normally there are pretty straightforward tables with that kind of thing.

E.g. http://taic.me.uk/pdf/appen9.PDF


I can also open Ak's pdf file without any navigation by simply clicking on the large pdf symbol. The grammatical headings (Masc. fem, nom, dative etc) are all in English. He has added two adjective (mòr=big, dubh=black) to the table to show the changes that happen to those too. It prints out nicely too. (Taing do dh'Ak, mar as àbhaist! )

awwwwessssommmmmme, yea I noticed they were the same, it kind of set it in stone for me. I'm so happy I got it down pretty well right now. I'm using, akerb's site, ordering his book, using taic right now for grammar which i'm burning through and loving, I'm using a multidict for word pronunciation and look up, and a few other sites for spelling, I'm slowly building my grammatical knowledge, I haven't looked at the appendix stuff yet on there but I will be from now on! I'm only on lesson 7 of taic, and have been studying for almost almost a month, I know pretty much everything solid from lesson 7 down, and ready to go onto eight. I listen to Gàidhlig all the time, songs, podcasts, BBC Alba, and various other sites and plan on reading loads of material and talking here solely in Gaidhlig and on skype if it can be arranged, when i know a comfortable amount to be able to express myself. When I get to a comfortable place even if i'm slow or wrong on some things I don't care I learn from mistakes relatively fast I guess.

It's the most beautiful thing to me, or tha i cho bròidheach.... to me lol I have a a thirst to learn more and more everyday, I'll just keep on keeping on. Thanks for your reply.

[GunChleoc]

I recommend you split the learning of the cases in two:

1. what the article causes (t-, lenition etc)
2. what the noun causes (slenderising, leniting the adjective etc.)

You can then organise them into groups. E.g. in the singular forms, the article does the same thing for feminine nominative, masculine genitive, masculine dative and feminine dative: a' + lenition where possible, t- before s.