Verbs verbs verbs, dancin' down on Sunset Strip

[jasonleitch]

Hey guys and gals hope you're having a nice weekend, work has been crazy this week and I've had little time to practice the Gàidhlig. But much to my surprise and relief I seem to be better at it, that is to say it jumps out at me naturally and I haven't forgotten anything major.

I've just got done with lesson 8 on taic, at this point apart from this forum it is my main and only real source of building a massive amounts of information in a short time, and for the most part it's pretty straight forward until I hit a wall and then I come here! So let me tell you what's up.

The entire lesson seems pretty comprehensive and well structures as an introduction to verbs. Until about 3/4 of the way in then things start to happen without any decent explanation as to why in the lesson. The lesson focuses on the verbal noun as it appears to pop up in the different forms I'm being taught at this time. Consists of:

• The verbal noun male/female possibilities
  The present participle
  The infinitive
  Infinitives with a'dol
  Certain exceptions with verbs like tha(bha) ag airraidh and tha(bha) ag obair, meaning want(ed) or work(ed) etc
  And exceptions with ag airraidh being used with verbs a bhith, a thighinn, a dhol

Now the reason I mentioned all of that is because THAT IS the lesson i.e. Verbal Nouns in various forms and uses i guess and I understand completely up until this point, we move directly on to vocabulary after this. Where now 2 forms are being taught, and this particularly not out of place but cryptic piece of verbiage rears it's ugly head "Verbs: the first element is the verb root (equivalent to the second person imperative) followed by the verbal noun". So not only do I not understand this small snippet of information, I'm left with 2 forms of verb which seem randomly different from each other in terms of how did I get to this verbal noun from this apparent "verbal root". Or more importantly, if I'm being taught this it must be important, which is where I am at right now.

This basically breaks down to a ying yang scenario: How do I, when learning one verb from any sources I might possess learn or even identify one form from the other?? And just as importantly and unexplained how or when could I possibly know when to use either??? The two most important things when teaching yourself and looking to make examples right away. I surely can't be expected to figure it out O_o not from this lessons material. So what's the big deal? A harmless verbal root is added in, yea. Seeming random changes, I look, I think, I look again, I see patterns where the verbal nouns look more broad near the end then they become more broad with the verbal root, so I end up where I started. I could even be fine with this if I were sure answer were coming later. But then, the reason for all of this typing appears:

Bha a' chaileag a' cluich leis a' chù

The bludy second grammartical, practical example, uses a' cluich lol, the bludy verbal root. Now tell me I'm not wrong here but in a lesson about verbal noun forms and where they are used and then using the verbal root in -from the perspective of a beginner the exact same way- is just confusing!! These lessons are great but I can't be the only one who has thought "wait, what?".

I don't think this is an unreasonable issue to have especially because I actually understood 99% of the material until about 50% of it is cut out from under my feet.

• bruidhinn, bruidhinn (ri) - speak (to)
  buail, bualadh - strike
  ceannaich, ceannach (do) - buy (for)
  cluich, cluiche - play
  coisich, coiseachd - walk
  cuir, cur - put, place
  fàg, fàgail - leave
  faic, faicinn - see
  fuirich, fuireach (ri) - stay, wait (for)
  iarr, iarraidh (air) - want, ask (for)
  iasgaich, iasgach - fish
  ionnsaich, ionnsachadh - learn
  ith, ithe - eat
  leugh, leughadh (ri) - read (to)
  leum, leum - jump, leap
  obraich, obair - work, operate
  òl, òl - drink
  rach, dol - go
  ruith, ruith - run
  seinn, seinn - sing
  sgrìobh, sgrìobhadh (gu) - write (to)
  till, tilleadh - return
  tog, togail - build , lift
  tòisich, tòiseachadh (ri) - start, begin (to)

Also one last thing. How does one distinguish between word forms like a' leughahd and a leughahd during spoken speech? Context or? Because obviously my ears aren't developed enough to catch up with the conversation as it rattles on. (Yet)

[faoileag]

Hang onto a few basic facts:

The Gaelic verb has 2 basic forms.

1. the root (also sometimes called the stem) : e.g. fuirich, cluinn, dèan
2. the verbal noun: e.g. fuireach, cluinntinn, dèanamh.

They generally appear in this order in dictionaries too.
All the other forms of the verb are based on those two, so learn both of them the moment you learn either.
It's common, but not essential, that the root is 'narrow' (has i in ending) and the verbal noun is broad (has a in ending).

The root happens also to be the command form (the 'imperative'), if talking to one person ('thu'):
- Fuirich mionaid! Wait/Stay a minute!

The verbal noun used with a' or ag happens to be the equivalent to the English -ing form ('present participle' in the continuous form of the verb - I am doing sth.) - in fact the chances are that English got its unusual continuous form of the verb from the Celtic languages in pre-Roman/pre-Anglo-Saxon Britain (though that will probably provoke scholarly comment on here).
- Tha mi a' fùireach ann an Glaschu- I am staying/living in G.


What Mr Taic calls the infinitive (a much debated and not very popular term among Gaelic scholars) is in fact the lenited verbal noun with 'a', used in a few specific situations, namely mainly after the verb 'a bhith' and the verbs of motion, such as going and coming, and indicating purpose - going somewhere (in order) to do something.

Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig.

As regards the examples with 'ag iarraidh' what you have there is the phenomenon called 'inversion' and there is a thread on that here, also talking in the exceptions with a' dol etc:

http://www.foramnagaidhlig.net/foram/vi ... =11&t=2189

Take some time to digest all of this. That chapter in TAIC is a killer.

By the way, your example:

Bha a' chaileag a' cluich leis a' chù

is actually only confusing because the final -e in the verbal noun a' cluiche is missing (legitimately, if unhelpfully here - final e's routinely drop off in colloquial usage).


And I think that's more than enough for one post!

[akerbeltz]

In a bit of a hurry just now:

There are two key forms for a Gaelic verb you must learn by rote: the imperative (the order form for a single person) and the verbal noun (the equivalent of English -ing words). Both cannot be predicted, which is why you need to learn them. For regular verbs, virtually all forms can be predicted.

So, if you learn that buail! is (you single person) hit! and that bualadh means hitting, you're set. Similarly, if you learn that fairich! means (you single person) feel! and that faireachdainn means feeling, you're set.

For example, to then do the past tense forms you need to know that for independent forms you need to lenite (if possible) and that for dependent forms the past tense do sticks around:
buail an cù! (you) hit the dog
tha mi a' bualadh an cù I'm hitting the dog (which is ok colloquially, nm the genitive just now)
bhuail mi an cù I hit the dog
cha do bhuail mi an cù I did not hit the dog.

You can also then predict, for example, that the first person imperative is formed by adding -(e)am and that the conditional first person independent is formed by leniting and adding -(a)inn:
buaileam an cù! let me hit the dog!
bhuailinn an cù I would hit the dog.

No, I'm not throwing crazy verb forms at you to impress, just to illustrate the point that once you have memorised the imperative and the verbal noun, the rest is mostly application of rules. Let me know if you're following so far and we'll take it a bit further, ok?

[faoileag]

Parallel post - and taing do Dhìa, Akerbelz isn't disagreeing....

[GunChleoc]

But I am

Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig.

Tha mi a' dol a Ghlaschu - I'm going to Glasgow
Tha mi a' dol a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to hear Runrig.
Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu gus Runrig a chluinntinn - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig. - to means "in order to" here, or am I wrong? And I think èisteachd ri would be better than cluinntinn

OK, back to verbal nouns: what the others said!

They can be used in quite a number of different constructions. This will take time to learn.

a' leughadh/a leughadh is a bad beginner's example for pronunciation, because lenition of l doesn't show up in writing. How about this one:

Tha mi a' dràibheadh a Ghlaschu - I am driving to Glasgow
Tha mi a' dol a dhràibheadh a Ghlaschu - I am going to drive to Glasgow

Is that any clearer for you?

BTW. you have some vowels switched in your post: Tha mi ag iarraidh

[akerbeltz]

is in fact the lenited verbal noun with 'a', used in a few specific situations, namely mainly after the verb 'a bhith' and the verbs of motion, such as going and coming, and indicating purpose - going somewhere (in order) to do something.

Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig.

Yup. In fact, I've always maintained that there' nothing exotic at all about that, it's just two instances of do "to" in it's short form a, so technically

a' dol do Ghlaschu do chluinntinn Runring

Which explains neatly why it appears with verbs of motion

and taing do Dhìa, Akerbelz isn't disagreeing

Och, now why would I do that?

[Níall Beag]

But I am

Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig.

Tha mi a' dol a Ghlaschu - I'm going to Glasgow
Tha mi a' dol a chluinntinn Runrig - I'm going to hear Runrig.
Tha mi a' dol a Glaschu gus Runrig a chluinntinn - I'm going to G. to hear Runrig. - to means "in order to" here, or am I wrong? And I think èisteachd ri would be better than cluinntinn

One of Richard Cox's favourite examples is
Tha mi a' dol a dh'fhuireach a dh'Inbhir Nis [Edited as per correction by GunChleoc]
(I'm going to live in Inverness -- or more literally I'm going to Inverness to live)

"Dol" seems to be happy to tell us both a destination and a future action in one clause.

I think Richard would be happier with the Runrig one in a different order though...
Tha mi a' dol a chluintinn Runrig a Ghlaschu...

[akerbeltz]

I think Richard would be happier with the Runrig one in a different order though...
Tha mi a' dol a chluintinn Runrig a Ghlaschu...

That jars on so many levels I want to hear why

[GunChleoc]

It would work with ann an Glaschu

Tha mi a' dol a dh'fhuireach a dh'Inbhir Nis - verbal noun

[jasonleitch]

In a bit of a hurry just now:

There are two key forms for a Gaelic verb you must learn by rote: the imperative (the order form for a single person) and the verbal noun (the equivalent of English -ing words). Both cannot be predicted, which is why you need to learn them. For regular verbs, virtually all forms can be predicted.

So, if you learn that buail! is (you single person) hit! and that bualadh means hitting, you're set. Similarly, if you learn that fairich! means (you single person) feel! and that faireachdainn means feeling, you're set.

For example, to then do the past tense forms you need to know that for independent forms you need to lenite (if possible) and that for dependent forms the past tense do sticks around:
buail an cù! (you) hit the dog
tha mi a' bualadh an cù I'm hitting the dog (which is ok colloquially, nm the genitive just now)
bhuail mi an cù I hit the dog
cha do bhuail mi an cù I did not hit the dog.

You can also then predict, for example, that the first person imperative is formed by adding -(e)am and that the conditional first person independent is formed by leniting and adding -(a)inn:
buaileam an cù! let me hit the dog!
bhuailinn an cù I would hit the dog.

No, I'm not throwing crazy verb forms at you to impress, just to illustrate the point that once you have memorised the imperative and the verbal noun, the rest is mostly application of rules. Let me know if you're following so far and we'll take it a bit further, ok?

I am completely comfortable with that at this point. At least I know all other forms work off that base and i'm happy to learn them. I'll try to reply to both you and faolieag here.

So,

As far as word order is concerned, when the present participle or the verbal noun or 'infirmitives' has an object (or everything i'm concerned with at the moment) i.e.
càr a cheanneach
or using ag iarraidh
ag iarraidh càr a cheanneach
ag iarraidh cofaidh òl
ag iarraidh cofaidh ag òl

This causes inversion? Where inversion is the object before the verb it applies to; but when using "verbs of motion"? with again all of the above namely the infirmitive or to [insert verb here] the word order follows like the enlglish (apart form tha mi):

Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol a chluiche ball-coise

lit. I am wanting to go to play football

Where the verb precedes the object? Because I will probably make this mistake a lot until I have a vocab dense enough to freely read materials without any help.

As far as the example Bha a' chaileag a' cluich leis a' chù this seems to have a word order consistent with the first examples where whatever is applying to the verb as an ... indirect object? i.e. the dog, follows the verb,

a' cluiche leis a' chù
leis a' chù a' cluiche

there is no verb of motion so shouldn't it be the latter?

And dropped 'e' doesn't help with the weight of the subject matter especially when it might or might not happen. But with all things it's exposure. Now that I know it exists I will get over it with time lol.

Also I asked how to distinguish between words like a' leughahd and a leughahd, but if inversion applies to the latter then wouldn't:

leabhar a' leughahd
ag iarraidh a leughahd leabhar sin

do the distinguishing for me? or does inversion only work with verbs of motion, could you give some examples that are within my knowledge to understand (or tr*nsl*t* some of the stuff you think I won't know is probably best for making it more natrual)

also one last thing =D tell me there is a way to distinguish in speech between Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol a dh'òl cofaidh I know one is grave but they sound two similar when I say them unless I pause for a breath after a dhol

[faoileag]

Just so I'm not causeing any trouble and stife, I will happily admit my sentence re Runrig and Glaschu was not a great example - it sort of grew organically as I made a succession of changes in haste to make it clearer for Jason.
I had started off with a dh' èisteachd ri, realised that might just confuse him further, didn't want 'gus..' for the same reason, so looked for a lenitable transitive verb, and put it in same sentence as a' dol a Ghlaschu, and would with hindsight have said:

Tha mi a' dol a chluinntinn R. ann an G.

So, gabhaibh mo leisgeul and keep things simple!

[Seonaidh]

'S ann air call a tha mi...let's see, how many different ways are there of confusing the unaware with the letter A in Gaelic?

When "a" comes from "an" (the), it's got a napostrophe after it. Similarly, when it comes from "aig" (or "ag") (at). When it comes from "do" or "dha" (to, for), there's no apostrophe ann. It can also mean "his", "her" or "its" Sometimes, it can be an abbreviated form of "bho" or even "de" - no apostrophe. It can also be "who" or "which". It can introduce a Vocative Case, as in "A Mhàiri!" (Mary!). It's even used to start a question with the present tense of "to be" (A bheil...).

Usually, the "ag" or "a'" (from "aig") with verbnouns is only used with a form of "to be" (it can also happen on its own in the context of <verb>-ing). When you've got a sentence that in English would maybe look like subject-continuous verb-object, e.g. "I am buying the house", the "object" bit goes into the Genitive in Gaelic, e.g. "I am a-buying of the house" (Tha mi a' ceannach an taighe). This is the sort of thing you use where you'd have "is <verb>-ing", "was <verb>-ing", "will-be <verb>-ing", "would-be <verb>-ing" etc. in English: if the "object" has a definite article, it goes genitive (and stays at the end).

However, where the English uses some sort of structure with "have", usually a past tense, inversion kicks in. Example: "I have bought the car*" - "Tha mi air an càr a cheannach" ("I am on the car to buy"). Note that the usual rules for Dative DO NOT APPLY to the "object" after "air" in such circumstances.

As for all your desires, as "iarraidh" is not part of "to be" in Gaelic, there's never going to be any "ag" or "a'" (aig) after it. I mean, would you in English say "I want playing the piano"? I think not: rather, "I want to play the piano". So in Gaelic this may well come out as "Tha mi ag iarraidh am piàna a chluiche" ("I am wanting the piano to play").

Any better?

* that is, "automobile"

[GunChleoc]

Inversion has nothing to do with verbs of motion. You will get it after a number of different constructions:

Tha mi a' leughadh leabhair - I am reading a book

Tha mi ag iarraidh leabhar a leughadh - I want to read a book
Bu toil leam leabhar a leughadh - I would like to read a book
Tha mi air leabhar a leughadh - I am after reading a book

Tha mi a' cheannach càr - I am buying a car
Tha mi ag iarraidh càr a cheannach - I want to buy a car


However, when you have a preposition, there is no inversion:

Tha mi a' cluiche leis a' chù - I am playing with the dog
Tha mi ag iarraidh cluiche leis a' chù - I want to play with the dog.

[Níall Beag]

I think Richard would be happier with the Runrig one in a different order though...
Tha mi a' dol a chluintinn Runrig a Ghlaschu...

That jars on so many levels I want to hear why

Richard laughed at me. He agrees with you... gus Runrig a chluinntinn.

[Níall Beag]

As far as word order is concerned, when the present participle or the verbal noun or 'infirmitives' has an object (or everything i'm concerned with at the moment) i.e.
càr a cheanneach
or using ag iarraidh
ag iarraidh càr a cheanneach
ag iarraidh cofaidh òl
ag iarraidh cofaidh ag òl

This causes inversion? Where inversion is the object before the verb it applies to; but when using "verbs of motion"? with again all of the above namely the infirmitive or to [insert verb here] the word order follows like the enlglish (apart form tha mi):

Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol a chluiche ball-coise

lit. I am wanting to go to play football

Where the verb precedes the object? Because I will probably make this mistake a lot until I have a vocab dense enough to freely read materials without any help.

Yes.

As far as the example Bha a' chaileag a' cluich leis a' chù this seems to have a word order consistent with the first examples where whatever is applying to the verb as an ... indirect object? i.e. the dog, follows the verb,

a' cluiche leis a' chù
leis a' chù a' cluiche

there is no verb of motion so shouldn't it be the latter?

No, for two reasons.

One: inversion only affects direct objects -- nouns without prepositions. "leis" = preposition -> indirect. If you're playing football with the dog, "football" is the direct object.

Two: this is an "ag" situation. "Tha mi a' cluich(e) ball-coise" -- I am playing football. When the verbal noun follows ag or the shortened form a', it means someone is/was/will be doing something, and there's no inversion.

This is actually the reason that some people talk about the "infinitive". They call the verbal noun "present participle" when it's with "ag", because in those situations it acts similar to doing etc in English. They call it the "infinitive" in other places because it acts similar to to do in English. It's a bit of a half-truth, but it's OK as a rule of thumb. If it can only be "doing", and it can't be "to do", it mostly doesn't invert. If you can use "to do", it mostly does, except with verbs of motion (cos it's a different "to", and because you would mostly say "and" in English anyway).

Mostly.

also one last thing =D tell me there is a way to distinguish in speech between Tha mi ag iarraidh a dhol a dh'òl cofaidh I know one is grave but they sound two similar when I say them unless I pause for a breath after a dhol

You've got to get your vowel length right. If it's a long vowel, say it long. Even if you have to exaggerate and make it reeeeeeeeeeaaaaally long, make you long vowels long and your short vowels short, and prove to your brain that it's an important distinction.