math... gu math? *_* and grammatical terms

[akerbeltz]

I'm not normally a friend of the suggestion to "listen to native speakers" but in terms of what you can and can't do with your voice in Gaelic, the only real solution IS to listen to unscripted dialogue between native speakers.

In terms of commands and politeness, there's always more than one way to skin a cat. We had a thread about that actually but I can't find it. Anyway. Bearing in mind that the context is always key (e.g. are the two people equals, family, friends, pals, colleagues, domainatrix and slave etc...) a direct command is the least polite:
dèan seo!

Using -aibh elevates the interpersonal relationship to that of unequals, i.e. someone of higher and lower status:
dèanaibh seo!
I'd probably not use that speaking to a single person unless there was an emergency, like "do that or we drown".

You only start getting polite when you avoid the command:
an dèan thu/sibh seo?
nach dèan thu/sibh seo?
saoil an dèan thu/sibh seo?

And so on. Make sense?

[Thrissel]

We had a thread about that actually but I can't find it.

Can't find it either but had copypasted a part of it back then into an .rtf:

Tha dhà no trì prìomh dhòighean ann sa Ghàidhlig gus a bhith modhail:
1) sibhsigeadh (cleachdadh sibh seach thu)
2) neo-dhìreachas - ag obair air iomadh dòigh e fhéin, m.e.
2a) ceist seach iarrtas dìreach: am fosgail thu an doras?
2b) conditional: bhiodh e math nam fosgladh tu an doras
2c) seachnadh a' chuspair: tha e beagan teth an-seo
3) faclan/strutaran sònraichte:
3a) saoil + ceist: saoil am fosgail thu an doras?
3b) gun/gum + gnìomhair: gum faic mi? seach "seall dhomh"
3c) gabh(aibh) mo leisgeul
'S urrainn dhut iad seo a mheasgachadh, m.e. sibhsigeadh agus faclan sònraichte, agus tapadh leat/leibh a' cur ris. Airson tiocaidean iarraidh air daoine: Gum faic mi na tiocaidean agaibh? - Am faic mi ur tiocaidean, tapadh leibh.
BTW: Tha na Gàidheil nas buailtich air ciad ainmean a chleachdadh, fiù mas e urramach a tha thu a' bruidhinn ris (sin as adhbhar nach eil faclan mar "maighstir" no "sir" cho cumanta). Agus ma tha thu airson a bhith ro mhodhail, rudeigin mar "a bhean uasail!"

[jasonleitch]

So what you're saying is, that -(a)ibh is a necessity when dealing in plural but in singular you wouldn't use it unless the nuance it carried was dreadfully necessary, as it points out a distinct difference in status?

so:

Dèan sibh seo when referring to one person is accepted over Dèanibh sibh seo the sibh is polite enough?? I'm trying to gauge with my current ability the difference between polite, not so polite and plain not polite

I have 1 and 3 either imperative or imperative+(a)ibh respectively but where is the middle ground, or is there any

[akerbeltz]

I don't recall ever having used -aibh as an imperative to an individual in over a decade of speaking Gaelic. The reason is just that even though you're using the "polite" sibh form, you're still issuing a direct command.

Dèan sibh seo when referring to one person is accepted over Dèanibh sibh seo the sibh is polite enough??

No, if you want it nailed down in really simple terms then I'd say "don't ever issue a direct imperative to someone you're trying to be polite to. Always re-phrase your command in a different grammatical structure, e.g. a question"

[GunChleoc]

Also, a grammar point: the -(a)ibh already is the sibh. Just like in English, you don't say "Do you this!", you say. "Do this!" So, "Dèan(aibh) sibh seo!" is not possible.

[akerbeltz]

the -(a)ibh already is the sibh.

True but remember there's some oddballs like dèanaibh sibhse seo but that doesn't convey extra politeness, just extra force, a bit like YOU guys WILL do this

[jasonleitch]

I like it I like it, thanks guys hopefully one day I'll be able to help someone out as much as you help me


well for

Dèan sibh seo
Dèanibh seo

like.... are they the same then? polite singular? Regular old plural? under what circumstances WOULD you use either? I get what you mean about rephrasing to question form.

[An Gobaire]

I'm not normally a friend of the suggestion to "listen to native speakers" but in terms of what you can and can't do with your voice in Gaelic, the only real solution IS to listen to unscripted dialogue between native speakers.

Using -aibh elevates the interpersonal relationship to that of unequals, i.e. someone of higher and lower status:
dèanaibh seo!

Sibh is just respectful, less to do with higher and lower status. I've heard two Gaels addressing each other as "sibh". Equally respecting each other.

[akerbeltz]

I've heard two Gaels addressing each other as "sibh". Equally respecting each other.

Ah yes, of course if they're both using it. I meant if one is using sibh and the other thu.

[jasonleitch]

can someone give me a good example where something like:

Dèan sibh seo
Dèanibh seo

would be used and it's context? I get that sibh is respectful, but these a both respectful, right? So what's the difference

[An Gobaire]

Dèanaibh is the "sibh" form of the imperative.

Dèan sibh is not heard. Dèan sibhse is used for emphasis.

A: (1 person speaking on behalf of another or a group): An dèan thusa seo a-nochd?

B: (1 person referring to more than one person in A's group): Cha dèan. Dèan sibhs' e.

or alternative: Dèanaibh fhèin e!

[jasonleitch]

very cool cheers pal

[An Gobaire]

Dèanaibh fhèin e...is probably more likely in this conversation. From a good Gaelic speaker.

[jasonleitch]

I'm still a noob here, a combination of always really being annoyed that I don't already know this and leaving home for America has spurred my determination and I won't stop until I know all of this stuff. I'm still on grammar and vocab and every day is something new, beyond that, when I have learned all the technical stuff, what would be the next step, reading? You mention "from a good Gaelic speaker" picking up the expressions and how conversations flow, the words to actually use without sounding weird, that would come from exposure right? A few weeks of making mistakes with a native speaker or reading and listening to a lot of dialogue. I guess what I'm asking is, you can only theoretically learn so much, the rest comes from experience? right?

Pronunciation used to be like the hardest thing for me to do I should say "reading" not really the speaking, just because of lack of experience, and dong this on my own. Now it's like the easiest, i'm very sure Akerb and a few others would find some holes in that statement lol pronunciation is still a bigggggggg topic that needs work but I hear new things every so often which has to be a good thing, the latest being Cuir, I've heard it Pronounced like a "Cur" "Cueer", and almost like a "Curth" obviously more run together not with every letter crisp. It's almost like music, sharp or flat just have to keep saying it and listening. Wee bit of my expertise on the subject there . Generally I see two sides to pronunciation, the way it should technically be done and the way it's actually done. But ANYWAY turns out I've been using Gaelic words though out my entire life and never even knew. And I have like the most broad accent you can get and gaelic feels very comfortable in my mouth ya know. Not a stretch at all.

I almost had a heart attack when I found out that cupboard was preas, considering my gran, mum, aunts have been calling it that since I was born or that it's "dubhar" out side. Loads of examples like that. Crazy stuff. Anyway the point was, I can't wait till I can hold a conversation lol.

[An Gobaire]

yes, it's from hearing the language being used.