Pronunciation Help

[caiptean]

I'm having problems understanding how [ʎ] is supposed to sound. I've heard people say that it sounds like the ll in "million." But to me, that sound in "million" just sounds like [mɪɫjən], where it's two sounds, not one. Help? I've been unable to find any place online with soundfiles for [ʎ].

Tapadh leibh!

[akerbeltz]

Yeah that guidance about "million" is crap as the [ʎ] just doesn't appear in English. There's some Gaelic sound files here and some tongue-tie instructions here. Have a go and see how you get on and if you're still stuck, let us know and we'll try and sort it out?

[caiptean]

From what I understand, the L^j sound is the one I'm looking for with [ʎ], right? When I try it the way you describe on your site, it makes sense why people might rationalize it as a ll+j sound. I think I get that part now, although when I say it without voice, it sounds like I'm saying an "sh" sound while wearing a retainer.

The ones I'm having problems with now are the N and r^j sounds. I'm having trouble distinguishing "N" from "n" and I just honestly have no idea how to make the r^j sound. It always comes out as a voiced th. Advice?

[Seonaidh]

It often does sound like a voiced th - depends what dialect of Gaelic you're into.

"Million" is not useful if your native dialect is broad Scots, where the execution of such a word would usually have a "broad L" in it (often with the leading I tending to U or back A, à la "Oor Wullie"). However, it is vaguely useful if you've come across native French or Spanish, as you may well have made an association between the "million" L sound and the LL digraph in French or Spanish. As for voicelessness, that's probably a dialect thing in Gaelic - i.e. I've come across several native Gaelic speakers who always voice all Ls, but also across some who unvoice that sort of L (making it sound pretty much like the Welsh LL). As for it sounding like SH, the only vaguely parallel development I can think of is Argentinian LL (also some dialects of Chile), where LL is executed rather like a French J. Persevere - it'll come.

[akerbeltz]

Yup, ʎ = Lʲ and so on, I used to use ʎ but found that it just didn't make enough sense (along with ɲ) to normal learners so I went with Nʲ and Lʲ because they hold two clues to what you're looking at.

Devoicing of consonants overall is common, not just L sounds, especially at the end of the word or near certain voiceless sounds but that shouldn't worry capitean right now.

As for *hearing* the difference - you might well never learn to hear the difference. The key thing is to learn how to say them properly. Context usually provides enough clues as to meaning, even should all 3 L sounds sound the same to you. But If you can't make them in the right place, you sound silly to native speakers and they'll switch to English. But since they can't hear what you hear and only hear what you say, no worries

[caiptean]

Tapadh leibh, I have another question if you guys wouldn't mind helping me out. I'm learning from two separate books, and one translates "What are you doing?" as Dè a tha thu a deanamh? and the other as Dè tha thu a deanamh? Is the exclusion of the conjunction something that is common in Gaelic in "Question word + that + tha + subject..." constructions? Is it just something that is lost in speech and sometimes reflected in writing, or is one more correct than the other?

[akerbeltz]

It's just differences in spelling conventions. As a rule of thumb, when a weak schwa [ə] at the end of a word hits a full vowel at the beginning of the next word, the schwa is nixed. That happens with great regularity in the spoken language. How people write that is a bone of contention. The following are generally ellided by most spelling conventions:
cò a > co
dè a > dè
cuine a > cuin
(except if another word intervenese e.g. cò fon ghrèin a thuirt seo?)
bu e/i > b' e/i

there may be a few more. The following are not universally ellided in writing:
tha/bha + vowel
is > 's

It's also a question of register. In a text message you'd expect more written ellision that in a legal document, so you do get fluctuations along the line of:
Cò a chunnaic a athair a bha anns a' bhùth is e ag òl
vs
Cò chunna athair a bh' anns a' bhùth 's e 'g òl

[caiptean]

Ahh, that's clearer. Cò a às a tha sibh? just doesn't fit in the mouth correctly, so I guess it makes sense that it would be left out.

Mòran taing, Akerbeltz agus Seonaidh!

[GunChleoc]

Cò às a tha sibh? - There's your a, it just had the às squeezed in between.

[akerbeltz]

Yes, another word going in between is the clearest "proof" of that a that has been swallowed up. Compare
Dè tha seo?
Dè fon ghrèin a tha seo?