Pronunciation of bh and mh

[RDavidP]

I have the Teach Yourself Gaelic book, and in the pronunciation guide it says that bh and mh at the beginning of a word should be pronounced as a 'v' is in English. Else where in a word, the bh and mh can be pronounced as a v or w. Listening to spoken Gaelic, I have noticed that in some words the bh or mh is pronounced as a v, and in others as a w. How do you know when to use the v sound or the w sound? What is the proper pronunciation?

[Gràisg]

Halò agus fàilte chridheil oirbh

Don't worry too much if some Gaelic sounds a bit different. TYG is a good starter book. Another good way to familiarise yourself with Gaelic sounds is to listen to Litir do Luchd-ionnsachaidh with one eye on the text.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/alba/fogh ... ndex.shtml
You wont go far wrong if you copy Roddy's pronunciation of Gaelic.

If you want a really in depth look at pronunciation, not everyone's ideal way of starting to learn gaelic lol, try this site
http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm

[GunChleoc]

As a beginner you'll be fine just sticking to v for now. When it turns into w partially depends on dialect (e.g. gabhail can be pronounced either with v or with w), so it's a bit tricky. Just keep your ear open for exceptions as you go along; a notable one is Inbhir Nis, where you do pronounce the bh as v.

Clear as mud?

[RDavidP]

Yes, it is very much mud.

I also know that "dubh" is always pronounced rough phoenitic "duu". I was listening to Roddy's recording and noticed that "taobh" was pronounced as a v as is leibh. There were a cople of others such as leabhar where it was either pronounced as a w or sounded like the bh was skipped all together.

[Gràisg]

Nice work - Cum a`dol a`toirt sùil air na litrichean cho tric `s urrainn dhut - keep on looking at the letters as often as you can

[Seonaidh]

Can be dialectal, m.e. you hear "dèanamh" as (he says, searching for a rough english-like orthography) "jianev" or as "jianoo" (or various varieties in between, or with slightly different vowel sounds). In general, the main difference between BH and MH is when they vanish, i.e. you don't say V. With BH this tends to be total, e.g. "cha robh" => "xha raw" (very roughly). With MH it can make the vowel before nasal, e.g. "còmhradh" => "caw~ragh" (imagine the tilde on the vowel, as in Portuguese Sa~o Paulo etc.)

As for "Inbhir Nis" and so on, the first bit usually comes out more like "inyer" than "inver". Some Anglicised Gaelic place-names spell themselves "Inner..." rather than "Inver...", probably from a no longer used orthography that wrote the Spanish "enye" sound as double N.

When it comes down to it, you don't get to speak in Gaelic from a book, only by speaking with others in Gaelic. After all, is that not the way you learnt to speak English? First, hear it, then say it, then use it - don't worry about how it's spelt until you need to.

[Níall Beag]

As a beginner you'll be fine just sticking to v for now.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Like every other (natural) language on Earth, Gaelic has a writing system that cannot fully describe its sound system (although it does a far better job than English).

The written word isn't really a word -- it's a drawing of a word. A drawing cannot capture the full complexity of the thing it represents[*], so written language is (to an extent) a simplified form of the language.

If you simplify all BHs and MHs to "V", you will put them all in one mental "box" and they will be hard to separate later.

Better then to learn the words as spoken (from the Teach Yourself CDs, Litir do Luchd-Ionnsachaidh etc), rather than trying to guess from the written form.

Moreover most of these subtle differences are quite systematic -- there are certain patterns that occur frequently, but no-one has written them down as they would look mind-bogglingly complex. However, they're not difficult at all if done by "feel" -- in the mouth -- than by analysis.


[*] Consider that a drawing of a cylinder face-on can look the same as a picture of a sphere, and it can look like a box if drawn side-on.

[Seonaidh]

"Anghytunaf yn llwyr" - dè sin a Nèill? OK, mevvies I should carry on in Ingglic. It's yndàwtedli tru dht kyrrnt Ingglic orthògrafi dz no proprli co haw it's prnawnst - and, indìjd, dht Galik's betr at duing so (dho not, az ju obzèrv, perfekt). Hwaj, dho, disagrì howlhàtidli widh gun hhljohk? Wi'v orl got t start symhwer - n for sym fowks it's izir t go widh ovy-simplifikèjcnz til dhe get mor intu dh langgwidx.

Dh ritn wyrd iz y droring v y wyrd? Aj thingk not. It majt, yt wyn tajm, hv bijn tru v Tcajnìjz/Dxappanìjz n so on - and, indìjd, awr letr A iz sypòwzd tu v kym from a reprizentèjcn v n oks'z aj (? aurochs?), byt dhijz piktogramz ar long gon naw. Naw, letrz, dajgrafs n dh lajk stand for sawndz. Dh matc, az ju se, iz fa frm perfekt. Hens iz it not sytc "silli" Ingglic spellingz az "ghoti" for "fic" (gh frm "inỳf", o frm "wimmin", ti frm "stejcn")

Swa, gan ijzi on wor GC! Agus sin b' e eisimpleir, 's dòcha, air sgìobhadh Beurla mar a chanas i...

[Stìophan]

As a beginner you'll be fine just sticking to v for now. When it turns into w partially depends on dialect (e.g. gabhail can be pronounced either with v or with w), so it's a bit tricky. Just keep your ear open for exceptions as you go along; a notable one is Inbhir Nis, where you do pronounce the bh as v.

Clear as mud?

I pronounce Inbhir Nis "Inner Neesh" as do a lot of Gaelic speakers. When Inbhir is the second/stressed element of a place name then it is definitely pronounced in full i.e. "INN-uh-ver" as in Lochinver - Loch an Inbhir

[neoni]

cha do thachair mi rìamh ri cuideigin a chanadh v ann an inbhir nis

[GunChleoc]

I think Nìall has a point. Maybe the best strategy is a mix of our suggestions: If you only have the written word at your disposal, stick to v for now, but listen as much as you can and be prepared to change it to w once you have come across the spoken version.

[Stìophan]

cha do thachair mi rìamh ri cuideigin a chanadh v ann an inbhir nis

Cha do thachair no mise!

[Seonaidh]

Uill, thachair e dhomh - ach bha na daoine a' bruidhinn anns a' Bheurla...