Fòram na Gàidhlig

akerbeltz wrote:

ach chan eil teagamh nach eil gnothaichean nas dòchasaich na bha iad ann an 2002

Sin an double negative > positive, cf cha chreid mi gu bheil e mòr > tha e beag vs cha chreid mi nach eil e mòr > tha e mòr

Tha diofar ann, shaoilinn.

cha chreid mi (neg) + nach eil e mòr (neg) = tha mi a' creidsinn (pos) gu bheil e mòr (pos)

chan eil teagamh ann (neg) + nach eil gnothaichean ... (neg) = tha teagamh ann (pos) + gu bheil gnothaichean (pos)

Ach a rèir coltais, chan eil iad a' ciallachadh "There's doubt (pos) that things are ... (pos)", ach "There's no doubt (neg) that things are... (pos)"

Chunnaic mi an structar seo mu thràth ach gu ruige seo, tha mi dìreach a' gabhail ris, gun thuigsinn an loidig aige.

On second thoughts: Maybe something to do with the ambiguity of Scottish "I doubt that ..."?

The solution is that Chan eil teagamh ann doesn't switch the second element over to positive. -> It is certain that it's not...

GunChleoc wrote:Seo an diofar eadar "chan eil teagamh" is "chan eil teagamh ann"

A bheil "chan eil teagamh ann" = "gun teagamh"?
Agus dè tha an diofar seo? Dè tha "ann" a' dèanamh? No dè tha neo-làthaireachd den "ann" a' dèanamh?
Ciamar a parsaicheas (?) sibh an seantans "chan eil teagamh nach eil"?
Shaoilinn gu bheil an "teagamh" an-seo car coltach ris an "amharas" (suspicion), ach tha eagal orm nach eil seo ceart...
Agus dè mu dheidhinn "tha teagamh nach eil" agus "tha teagamh gu bheil"?

poor_mouse wrote:

GunChleoc wrote:Seo an diofar eadar "chan eil teagamh" is "chan eil teagamh ann"

A bheil "chan eil teagamh ann" = "gun teagamh"?

Cha chreid mi nach eil

poor_mouse wrote:Agus dè tha an diofar seo? Dè tha "ann" a' dèanamh? No dè tha neo-làthaireachd den "ann" a' dèanamh?

http://www.akerbeltz.org/index.php?titl ... efore_I_am

poor_mouse wrote:Ciamar a parsaicheas (?) sibh an seantans "chan eil teagamh nach eil"?

= Is cinnteach gu bheil

poor_mouse wrote:Shaoilinn gu bheil an "teagamh" an-seo car coltach ris an "amharas" (suspicion), ach tha eagal orm nach eil seo ceart...
Agus dè mu dheidhinn "tha teagamh nach eil" agus "tha teagamh gu bheil"?

Tha seo caran doirbh dhomh ràdh an-dràsta. Cò chuidicheas?

GunChleoc wrote:http://www.akerbeltz.org/index.php?titl ... efore_I_am

'S math sin, ach cha tèid agam air a chleachdadh còmhla ris an "teagamh" seo...

Sorry GC, but I don't get it either. The article is about "ann" in the phrase "there is" and about its being used to put more emphasis to a sentence, but it doesn't say that when you omit it you switch the meaning to its opposite. It expressly says that both "tha cù fon bhòrd" and "tha cù ann fon bhòrd" mean "there is a dog under the table", albeit one more emphatically, not that "tha cù fon bhòrd" means "there isn't a dog under a table". So how does "tha teagamh ann - there's doubt" after omitting the "ann" turn into "tha teagamh - there isn't doubt?"

Seallaibh:

Neo-eisimeileachd Eileanach?
...
Tha a' cheist air èirigh taobh a-staigh Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, agus tha Fear-gairm na Comhairle, Tormod Dòmhnallach, ag ràdh gu bheil iad gun teagamh a' coimhead ri tuilleadh smachd air cuid de rudan.

"Chan eil teagamh nach eil sinne ag iarraidh barrachd smachd a bhith againn air leithid an oirthir bho Oighreachd a' Chrùin 's mar sin air adhart," thuirt Mgr Dòmhnallach.

"Tha sinne air a bhith ag argamaid airson sin airson iomadh bliadhna, agus chan eil teagamh ann nach eil sinne airson gun tèid cumhachdan ùghdarrasan ionadail a leudachadh a-mach.

'S dòcha gu bheil an dà chuid "chan eil teagamh nach eil" agus "chan eil teagamh ann nach eil" a' ciallachadh an aon rud an-seo. (Agus "gu bheil iad gun teagamh a' coimhead" cuideachd)

Bhiodh sin soilleir nan theireadh e "chan eil seo gun teagamh nach eil..." -- rud a bhiodh coltach ri "cha chreid mi nach eil".
Ach ciamar as urrainn do "(chan eil) teagamh" agus "(cha) chreid" an aon rud a chiallachadh, cha tuig mise idir.

I liked that because of the existential meaning, not because of the emphasis meaning.

Tha X ann = X exists

Seadh, ach chan eil "chan eil gun teagamh nach eil" cho furasda agus chan eil teagamh nach eil sin inntinneach dhomh gu dearbh.

Tha sin car coltach ri abairtean mar "cha ghabh mi ach balgam" agus "abair ach beag (is abair gu math e)" amsaa:

Am Faclair Beag, Toraidhean Dwelly wrote:gabhaidh mi faclair mur bi an clò-bhualadh ach air an dara taobh a-mhàin, I will take a dictionary if the printing be on one side (of the paper) only. The literal English tr*nsl*t**n of this sentence — “if the printing be not but on one side” &c conveys an exactly opposite meaning.

Bheirinn dhut e ach gu bheil thu gun chiall, I would give it to you were it not that you are without understanding;

b' e mo chomhairle dha a' chiad obair a ghabhail ach i a bhith onorach, I would advise him to take the first work if honest.

chan eil teagamh gu bheil/nach eil is just a sentence where the ann has been dropped. Rare, but it occurs in this type of expression. In cha chreid mi, creid is simply a verb, cf cha mhìnich mi.

Mar sin, "chan eil teagamh nach eil" = "chan eil teagamh ann nach eil" -- ceart gu leòr!

Ach ciamar a tha "teagamh" ag obrachadh?

Creididh mi gu bheil... positive
Creididh mi nach eil... negative
Cha chreid mi nach eil... positive -- tha sin soilleirr, nach eil?

The same thing with minich.

Ach 's dòcha gu bheil "tha teagamh ann gu bheil" -- negative ? There are doubts, I do not beleive that...
"Chan eil teagamh ann gu bheil" -- there are no doubts, I'm positive that...

Agus ciamar a bhios "chan eil teagamh ann nach eil" = "cha creid mi nach eil" ???

Bha mi a' cnuasachadh agus bha mi a' meòrachadh mu dheidhinn, a Luchag, and I concluded that the mistake we're doing is that we want Gaelic to be mathematically logical while Czech and Russian are not. Our Slavic double negatives "I won't go nowhere", "they won't never tell" and so on don't turn into positives either, although a learner of Czech/Russian might complain that they should logically mean "I'll go somewhere" and "they'll tell sometime". Let's just accept that a language can only be as logical as the people who speak it, and as our Nìall once said somewhere, "people don't think logically, they think psychologically".

'S math sin, a Thrissel!
Seadh, bhithinn den aon bheachd leat aig toiseach-tòiseachaidh mura robh rudan mar "cha cheid mi nach eil" amsaa loidigeach agus tuigseach gu leòr.
Ach san fhìrinn nach eil crìoch shoilleir eadar rudan loidigeach 's feadhainn mì-loidigeach (?), agus 's e seo eisimpleir fìor mhath airson sin a tha ann.

Ann am Beurla Albannach co-dhiù faodaidh tu ràdh an dà chuid, leis an aon chiall:

I don't doubt (for a minute) that he'll come;
I don't doubt but that he'll come.

= I expect him to come; I have no doubts.

Ah hae ma doots that he'll come / I doubt whether he'll come = I don't really expect him, it's very doubtful.

Ah, with but/ach it's much more intricate!

Seall nas àirde: gabhaidh mi faclair mur bi an clò-bhualadh ach air an dara taobh a-mhàin (Dwelly).